Village enclosed by multiple municipalities

[ursus]

Win 11 AIO64-5.2.3-r1-aa03f5a

A Village has belonged to several municipalities. I have created the village, then ‘Enclosed by’ Municipality number one, date 1812-01-01. Back to the village ‘Enclosed by’ Municipality number two, date 1818-01-01. And finally back to the village and added the third ‘Enclosed by’ Municipality number three, data 1999-01-01

Then I created an event (death) with a date of 1855-01-26.

Then closed all the windows and expected to see Village > Municipality two. But instead it showed only the Village name. Did I misunderstand something?
Example file attached
test-2024-11-09-20-15-46.gramps (729 Bytes)

[DaveSch]

The dates you set are specific dates. On those dates the village will be in that municipality.

Enclosed by, and alternative names, should have from <date1> to <date2>, after <date> or before <date> date ranges.

[GaryGriffin]

You need to use a Range when setting Enclosed By.

This will then show the correct place hierarchy with the event.

[emyoulation]

Also, please note that your sample Place hierarchy did not include Latitude and Longitude coordinate values.

Event in Places without coordinates cannot be plotted in Geography views.

You should add coordinates while you are correcting the date ranges for the Places.

[ursus]

Thanks all.
I understand the coordinates missing. But mostly I only know place names, which might be large cities, and until now I find merely pointing roughly at the center of the city not very satisfying. However when I do know a house or a street I will add the coordinates. This also because I have only recently begun to fully convert a file coming over from other software. Which is a very slow and tedious job to make the info as complete as it used to be. For now just left coordinates out for this example as not belonging to the question at hand.

[emyoulation]

[ursus]

Thanks, Brian, I do understand that, I understand those points are an approximation. So you can roughly follow the trajectory of individual. I’ll look into that. And probably adopt your suggestion.
NITPICKING MODE ON:
but stating the Netherlands (not a large country by any means) has a measurable center could be missing out quite a bit. Bonaire is a special municipality belonging to The Netherlands. A person could travel to ‘The Netherlands’ and end up some 8.000 km away.
NITPICKING MODE OFF

[emyoulation]

@ursus

And probably adopt your suggestion.

I was using your data to try an experiment with AI adding the coordinates. (Found a "leading zeros issue but the workaround is to use the Tools → Family Tree Processing → Reorder Gramps IDs on the Place IDs first.)

In Places List view, custom filtered for Places with no latitude or longitude given. View → Configure to show only the following: Columns ID, Title, Type, Latitude, Longitude. Family Trees → Export view… to CSV.

In Perplexity, prompt with data exported:

Please process the following CSV list. Look up the GPS coordinates for the place “Title” of each of the place rows.
Generate a new CSV with just 4 columns: labeled “Place” (which has ID values from the original table wrapped by square brackets), “Name” (which has the 1st item in the CSV list in the Title column), “Latitude” , “Longitude” :
`ID,Title,Type,Latitude,Longitude
P0000,Netherlands,Country,
P0001,“Gelderland, Netherlands”,Province,
P0002,“Zaltbommel, Gelderland, Netherlands”,Municipality,
P0003,“Bruchem, Zaltbommel, Gelderland, Netherlands”,Municipality,
P0004,“Kerkwijk, Zaltbommel, Gelderland, Netherlands”,Municipality,
P0005,Kerkwijk,Village,`

It generates the following CSV that (after backing up the Tree) can be Imported or used with the Text Import gramplet.

Place,Name,Latitude,Longitude
[P0000],Netherlands,52.1326,5.2913
[P0001],Gelderland,52.0450,5.8717
[P0002],Zaltbommel,51.8117,5.2494
[P0003],Bruchem,51.7833,5.2333
[P0004],Kerkwijk,51.7833,5.2167
[P0005],Kerkwijk,51.7833,5.2167

[Malakan]

I haven’t put in coordinates for counties yet, Im curious as to how you decide where the pin goes for them? Looking at your example for the Netherlands, thats just next to a history museum

[emyoulation]

In my own tree, I tend to accept the GeoNames coordinates from the Place Cleanup addon gramplet, and fallback to Wikipedia coordinates.
GeoNames says that it tries to use the centroid of the bounding outline.

Then plot all the Places enclosed by a particular Administrative region (like a Country or Province) with a Filter in the All Known Places geography view mode. (It helps to View → Configure the “places marker color” for that map. You can drag swatches instead of using the Select button to pick colors for each type one-by-one)

When exploring All Known Places map pins, any plotted outside a reasonable location can be tweaked. For instance, I move the USA country pin to just off the Atlantic coast of Washington DC.

In the AI experiment above, I did not demand that Perplexity use a particular source or method. So who knows what criteria was used.

[snek01]

How does this work in non-English versions of GRAMPS?
I use Czech version and I tend to think, that it does not work. Sadly I think it has never worked properly for Czech users in the history of GRAMPS.(!)
In English:
before 1777
from 1777 to 1850
from 1850 to 1948-12-31
after 1960-04-11
Corresponding Czech formats:
před 1777
od 1777 do 1850
od 1850 do 1948-12-31
po 1960-04-11
Dates “from to” (od do) works all right.
Dates “before” (před) does not work.
Dates “after” (po) does not work.
Not working dates are indicated with red color of the text.
If I will write format in English “after 1960-04-11”, GRAMPS will recognize it as correct format indicating in black text color. However after clicking “OK” button, then GRAMPS will translate English format date “after 1960-04-11” into Czech format date “po 1960-04-11”, that does not work.
It probably needs bug report, but I wanted to mention it here, that in other language versions may be never recognized serious bugs…
Reported as a bug: 0013506: Czech dates "before" and "after" does not work - Gramps - Bugtracker – Free Genealogy Software

[Davesellers]

Do you have the same issue if you use between 1777 and 1850?

[snek01]

Dates “from 1777 to 1850” (in Czech: od 1777 do 1850) works all right.
Dates “between 1777 and 1850” (in Czech: mezi 1777 a 1850) also works all right.
It seems, that “from - to” and “between - and” formats of dates are completely(?) interchangeable for enclosing of places.
See the reported bug with examples. 0013506: Czech dates "before" and "after" does not work - Gramps - Bugtracker – Free Genealogy Software

[ennoborg]

@snek01 I just noticed that the bug report was closed, because the fix is ready to be included in the next release. And if you want, you can test that yourself by running Gramps from source, following the instructions in the README on GitHub.

If you do that, it will not affect your current installation of version 5.1.6, meaning that it is quite similar to running the Flatpak version of 5.2.3 next to a normal installation, althoug that depends on whether the Flatpak version creates its own menu entry. It doesn’t do that on all Linux variants, but apparently, it does create on Ubuntu.

Running Gramps 5.2 from source gives you the chance to check whether you can really use the Czech words for before and after now.

[snek01]

Thanks for info. I already did the bug testing, I know that is is OK in new versions, I know how it does affect older versions. I consider it tested properly. Although everything works all right in new version, it is quite annoying bug, because I will need to manually re-enter at least 281 dates (that is what I know, probably about hundred more). What can I do as there exist no better genealogical software than GRAMPS. Cheers. Good luck with your genealogical research.

[ennoborg]

In theory, you can write an Isotammi script that looks for invalid dates, changes the words that are not understood to their English equivalents, and then reparses and saves them. But for that, you need to know quite a lot about Python, and Isotammi scripts.