Is it possible to have the older name of a place at the time of a event show up on the event, but but still count as the same place as another event that a newer name is showed?
If not, should I just have them as different places with their name at the time of the event, even if they are the same (and maybe put the older older one under the newer one (enclosed by)) or should I just put everything under the same newer name?
To begin with, version 5.2 (due out in a few months) will have significant changes in handling of Places. If you won’t be going to publication (web or print) before then, you may want to defer learning this part of the interface. It will be changing. It will be more flexible in handling oddities, like shifting enclosing borders & disputed territories.
That said, Gramps already directly supports different Place Names by era. It can be a bit funky predicting which Name shows in the Interface.
Ah, do you recommend just l put in the local place name I have right now for now and then go through and fine name changes and categorize places under other places and stuff later then?
Also, what is a few months? 2 or more likey 4+?
Ah, I just started doing that right now but I did not realize it actually showed the alternate name based on the date if its available both there and in the event if you click on the person. I had not looked, my brain sort of expected it not to be that way… That was wrong of me.
But that dont work when you dont know the date of an event tho, but maybe you can just put it somewhere in the area where the place had that name untill you maybe know more?
Also, dont quite work when multiple things merge together and change name. But then its probably best to have the old thing as its own place and put it under the new one sort of?
A Place, a spot on a map, can have more than one “Enclosed By” record to form a hierarchy. Each of these enclosed by entries can have date information for when this hierarchy was true. So based upon the date of the event, Gramps will select the path up through the hierarchy for that date.
The same is true for the Name of the place changing over time. Dates can be set on the Alternate Names records as well as in the Place Name Editor.
This basic functionality will still be true with the release of 5.2. The new release will offer greater user customization of how the place name will be displayed in the people/family records and in reports.
Note: Until a place record is saved within an event record, you will see the place record as it displays today. It is not until the event record is saved that the place will “see” the date of the event.
It will be longer than a few months.
The functionality of a place name changing based upon the event will stay the same.
When you attach a place record to an event without an event date, Gramps will display the place name based upon the hierarchy as if the date was 1 January, Year 1, the earliest possible date.
So in the record I show above, as the last entry, I have an enclosed by entry with no date information. This is how I set up a default path. If your last date entry in the enclosed by record is a "before <date>", this is the path Gramps will select for a non-dated event. Something to keep in mind. The same is true for alternate names.
And Note: If Gramps has no valid option for the Name/Alternate for the date of the event, Gramps will insert a question mark (?).
Locations on a map do split into smaller entities or those smaller entities merge.
It just becomes a matter of creating a record for all these entities. It just becomes a case that the records we find will either never refer to that smaller entity that merged. The place name is never again found in an official record.
Dover, Maine and Foxcroft, Maine merged to form Dover-Foxcroft. After the date of the merger no official record will say just Dover, Maine.
The bigger issue are the churches and cemeteries that were in Dover now have to have Dover-Foxcroft added to their hierarchies. And the same is true when a place splits. Those churches and cemeteries need to reflect that they may have once been in the larger Andover, Massachusetts but now in the half of that town that became an independent town of North Andover.
I put in date-ranged names in the Alternative Names for Places. The idea is that the Event date defines which Place Name will be output. So you can modify just the Place and the change will cascade through the entire Tree. Personally, I like always showing the Modern name with a “(then known as ___ )” caveat. An ugly example I like to use is… newspaper article of mentioning naturalization. At the time of birth, he was a native of Transylvania; at the date of naturalization, it was Hungary; when the newspaper reported it, he was German; now, it is Romania.
I’ve read that there’s a sentimental intention to shoot for April 21st… the 20th anniversary of the 1st public release of Gramps.
I remember asking a librarian (when I could go to the library pre-COVID) about place names. Specifically the idea of adding “New Roxbury (now Woodstock)” to the Alternate Names. But that example is not so simple. When it was New Roxbury it was a part of Massachusetts. It is not as simple as a change in names. All the changes in the hierarchy are having an affect.
And as you note, a record that is looking back in time will often get things wrong. I am doing some records that often have delayed birth certificates filed 30 or 40 years after the event. The birth place has always been how it is known now, not as it was.
I’m thinking that there could be logic in reports to compare modern Place name against that of the Event date … then add the caveat in the text if there is a difference.
Similarly, adding a (née BirthSurname) if a woman’s name differs for the Event date. Or (né Birthname) for males. Or some similar feature for defaulting to the modern Gregorian calendar date while showing any alternate calendar equivalent (Julian, Quaker date, Hebrew) used by the source.
All great ideas… for those just starting their genealogies. I am too far along to go back and edit all those records.
So its not working right now.
See here:
But at the person, it shows “Oslo Ingeniørhøgskole” while it should show “Oslo Tekniske Skole” in the person event.
What is the date information set for “Oslo Ingeniørhøgskole”. This is accessed by using the Place Name Editor at the end of Name field. This is the first item Gramps will evaluate looking for a valid name option. I suspect it need an “after 1994” entry.
Note: In the 5.2 release, this Name entry will also appear as the first entry in the Names list. You would not be the first user to overlook that Place Name Editor icon.
In 1994 it merged together with some other schools and became “Høyskolen in Oslo (HiO)”, so at that point that name was no longer the name of the school. If anyone was there 1994-2011 they will be pointed to “Høyskolen in Oslo (HiO)” and not “Oslo Ingeniørhøgskole”
Oh, I added the dates on it in the Place Name editor and now it works!
If what you say about 5.2 is true then that would be better yes, or another way to make it more visible.
Bonus question that is not really that important:
If a person was in first-time service in the millitary on year, but spent the time two places, it dont seem you can add two places under one event. I guess I then just have to put it in two events and then put the dates the same as I dont know spesifics?
I enter something like this as multiple events.
Military Service from date to date with description U.S. Army
Military Service from date to date with description Duty Station Place
Military Service from date to date with description Military Deployment Place
etc
The first entry has the overall enlistment to discharge dates with the in-between years as appropriate. Other events could be Awards, Promotions, being wounded or captured, battles, etc.
You put as much info (or not) as you know or can document.
how great it would be to have Main/Sub-Events…
I knew we would hear from you. I almost posted… “Another user has requested…” but knew you would take the opportunity to add another user to the cause of sub-events.
Yeh, it start to be a few of us now that think that’s kind of “important”…
I will keep on my crusade for Main/Sub Events, Events with Places as Subject and an export to a Network Graph format till I die!
Yes me, but I’ve a question thinking about that subevents: how would they looks like into a gedcom export? You have to recreate - “translate” them into - something like these 3 sentences @DaveSch suggested
I don’t use gedcom, its a lossy format that I try to avoid… sadly the genealogy community don’t really care about anything but LDS lineage-linked research…
A real graph format would be much better, or even a full csv dump is more usable than gedcom for most purposes, except the narrow lineage-link path…
There are so many great tools people miss, just because they don’t look outside the border of LDS defined research… it’s kind of sad…
