Place sorting vs encompassing place end date


I don’t know where to post this subject; in the Help or the Ideas category.

I’m modifying some places and something seems strange to me. I’ve created the european hierarchy like this:

  • European Union
    • Germany
    • Austria
    • United Kingdom

And I’ve added for each country its joining date to EU:

For United Kingdom, I’ve just modified the place to tell the country has left the union on 2020 Jan 1st:

But unlike other places where there is often an new encompassing place that replaces the previous one, and following the indicated order of these encompassing places, the place is correctly displayed in the current hierarchy.

Here there is no new encompassing place that replaces the EU and the United Kingdom does not come out of the European Union hierarchy. UK does not place itself (is not displayed) at the same level as EU, it still remains in EU hierarchy:

For the Ideas category: The idea would therefore be that if an encompassing place has an end date and there is no other encompassing place that covers the current period, that place goes out of its previous hierarchy in the Places view in order to correctly represent its actual status regarding current date.

For the Help category: Is this possible actually (or will be with future V5.2 place management) ?

Hello !

May be something with date set for Ablis ?

No date is set for Ablis.

I’ve tried that for UK but it don’t change anything.

I do not know how you make the hierarchy sort in the view based upon today’s date. Imagine the amount of processing that would need to occur when opening the hierarchy place view.

Two observations:

  1. Remember, the place view is only ever seen by the user. All our edits to a place record is so that the end result, how the place record will display when it is joined to an event on a specific date, is as correct as we can make it. Grandmother does not care how we got the place to display in a report we create for her.

  2. I ask this question as a non-European and as such, I have not added the European Union to my place hierarchy. Does the average person think of themselves in terms of the union? Would someone reading a genealogy report care if one child was born in London, England, United Kingdom and another London, England, United Kingdom, E.U.?

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I realize this. But for the vast majority of Gramps users, it remains primarily genealogy and the place records are there to support that research. When I get bogged down in editing my place records I often have to remind myself I am doing genealogy not making a place gazetteer.

When country borders change or overtaken by other countries I am trying to account for those changes. But I have not added the British Commonwealth as an entity because in terms of my genealogy, it is irrelevant. I asked the question regarding the E.U. to determine its relevance to what most Gramps users are doing.

I realize that each user will make all these decisions for themselves. Just like I have made the decision to ignore the new administrative groupings within the U.K. that supplanted the historical county structure. For me and those I am creating my genealogy, this new structure would have no meaning. I am having a harder time with places like Germany where I find the GetGOV app gives too much information but most other sources providing too little to determine what information is really important.

And this is one of the reasons I love Gramps. It is not telling me how I must do things.

I, too, have places that suffer from this kind of complication. As an example from some of my very recent research … Tryon County, North Carolina only existed from 1768 to 1779. It was formed from Mecklenburg County, and eventually divided into Lincoln and Rutherford Counties. Both Lincoln and Rutherford have since been divided again. Tryon County also spanned the time when the colonies became independent, so it was part of two different countries.

The example below regarding what is now Poland, parts of Germany, parts of Russia, the Pale of Settlement and Latvia/Estonia/Lithuania is another prime example of this complication. I have ancestors from that region.

I have occasionally considered making a place name called “World” which would contain everything. I think that would be a reasonable solution to the UK/EU problem, which is more complicated than just the span of EU membership. Think about the partition of Ireland in 1922.

Maybe a place called “Solar System” would be needed! Probably not while anyone here is still alive, but eventually I think there will be colonies on Luna and Mars.

Maybe we are not making a gazetteer, but we are trying to record places where records are kept. Where do I go to find records from Tryon County?


One link you may find helpful

I did create a place record World Oceans to aggregate all the various ocean records I have created. In their Enclosed by date I put 1/1/1 (1 Jan 1). So unless the ship sank on 1 Jan 1 “World Oceans” does not get appended to the event’s place record.


Right now, I dont list countries under anything, but if I did, I would personally leave UK under Europe and not have EU at all, thats how I feel. Tho, currently I just dont bother.

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