Hi all
There has been a discussion about different uses of CHR and BAPM in gramps rf. Moving events from christening to baptism.
I don’t want to open that discussion again, but ask if it is intended to change the recording standard when recording “Taufe” to be changed to “Taufe” = Christening instead “Taufe” = Baptism, perhaps by applying an option?
I know that I can change all BAPM events to CHR using the tool. The disadvantage would be that I would have to choose event-Religion-Christening which is rather inconveniant on data entry.
Perhaps alternatively there could be an option to choose change BAPM to CHR on gedcom export.
cheers
Uli
I have started to post several times only to delete my drafts.
I spent a little time on Google translate running the three terms; Baptism, Christening and Taufe, through the translator. And while in English there is a nuanced difference between Baptism and Christening, in German, they mean exactly the same.
One idea I had was to hack the code to eliminate one of the type options leaving just one type Taufe. But thinking about how embedded the two terms are in the code, it would be a losing endeavor.
The only other thought I had was to set the translation of one of the terms to something like “XX-Taufe” leaving just one Taufe available to use. But there would probably be a years long debate between German speakers/users about which term would in fact be commented out.
A question, are there times when you set Taufe using the version under Life Events (Baptism), versus the Taufe under the Religious (Christening)? Or are you just selecting one so that your entries are consistent?
Hi Dave
Thanks for your answer.
I constantly use Taufe which is under life events and translates to BAPM in gedcom export. The subject came up when using tng as well which uses CHR tag and talking to German tng users who constantly use CHR. Mostly they adress the event when babies are given their name in an chritian ceremony in church.
Perhaps the easiest way to handle will be to continue and tweak the gedcom export.
We are working on transcribing a parish book in a team, so we use tng as it allows all members to access and work together on the web.
Cheers
Uli
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In French Baptism an Christening both are translated into Baptême. I’ve asked Google Translate what Taufe means but it’ve returned no answer. These threads are totally lunar for me 
I was also puzzled by the subtle nuances between Christening and Baptism. So, I searched the internet, looking primarily to Church of England argumentation.
Globally, from a religious point of view, they have the same outcome: an incumbent is received among a church. It appears that preference for one term vs. the other seems to be closely related to the specific Christian denomination. Even Church of England considers they are equivalent and wording can be different across parishes due to historical local usage.
The ambiguity is worsened when it comes to translation. As @PLegoux and @uli22 point out, there is a single word in other languages, e.g. Baptême in French, Taufe in German.
IMHO, since there is non one-to-one correspondence between languages and cultures, this can be solved only with the implementation of a new concept in types (not only event type names because it can be useful with other object types): a hierarchical structure.
In such a tree-like architecture, like menus with sub-menus, we could have:
Religious events -+- Baptism -+- (CoE) Christening
| +- (CoE) Baptism
| |
| + (Cath) Baptism
| |
| + (Orth) Baptism
|
+- Marriage -+- …
If the Christian denomination is known, the event type is chosen from level 3; otherwise the generic term at level 2 is used. Generic term can be translated while specific term can’t always be.
Of course, search implementation must take this structure into account so that query for “Baptism” also returns '(xx) yy" and perhaps similarly query for “(xx) yy” could return “Baptism” if there is no such event type in the record but the ancestor generic term is present (may need a boolean for fuzzy search versus exact search).
Translation is very difficult when it comes to terms so much entangled in local culture. I personally consider they should not be translated blindly. Only the generic terms can. My idea of “hierarchical type names” is to always have a fallback “universal” word for the concept while lower branches allow to describe more specifically what is at stake.
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To cloud the waters further (hah!), keep in mind that some denominations are big on adult baptism:
It would feel wrong to record such an event in Gramps as a “Christening”.
Craig
(That picture has a weirdly homo-erotic vibe, doesn’t it?)
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If that is the problem, then maybe the focus of this discussion should be on the UI design?
Is Gramps Web an option, instead of TNG? (I haven’t used it, so I don’t know if it solves the data entry problem.)
For example, currently the first event I enter for a person defaults to Birth, the second defaults to Death. What if I could create different workflows having different lists of ordered default events? Then one of them could be Birth, Baptism, etc.
I don’t understand the importantance of this discussion. If the record I’m citing says Baptism that is how I record it, if it says Christening that is how it is recorded. How does it make any difference in the tree that I’m building?
@Davesellers
You’re right: if the record says Baptism, this is baptism; if it says Christening, it is christening.
The problem stems for ourselves who aren’t English-speaking natives. These built-in types must be translated into our own language. But then there is no strict equivalence to the English type. Reciprocally, how do we export Baptême or Taufe to GEDCOM? Which GEDCOM type to choose? Once again GEDCOM is English-based.
You know the proverb Traduttore, traditore. It is next to impossible to translate with a high degree of fidelity such abstract notion linked to local culture. You start from Baptism/Christening which is meaningful in some English-speaking Christian denomination and you must coerce the concept (because of GEDCOM) onto something different for another Christian denomination in a different country/language.
The problem is not in how to copy English-written records, but on how to use Gramps in another culture/language without messing up all the export features or even built-in filters and algorithms.
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Yes, translations can be problematic. If Baptism and Christening basically translate to the same thing in your language, I would pick the equivalent of Baptism just because it is at the top of the drop down list and slightly easier to select. I would ignore the Christening type. I admit I don’t know how the translations would be affected going through a gedcom onto another site. However if you use the same type all the time a global edit to change it to the required wording in the language should be simpler.
Continuing the discussion from BAPTISM vs. CHRISTENING: closed topic re-opened, posting appended.
I’m testing the macOS application MacFamilyTree version 11 (MFT for short). It’s an macOS only application, but it has some nice features that could be implemented in Gramps.
I did a GEDCOM export from Gramps and a GEDCOM import into MFT. Everything seems fine. MFT has a feature similar to the gramplet “What’s next”, and for all my persons MFT suggests to add “Christening” event. But all my persons has “Baptism” event. In MFT this event is called “Child Baptism”.
I’m running Gramps in the Danish translation, and here there is the same situation as in the German translation - the same word is used for both baptism and for christening. The Danish word is “Dåb” similar to the German word “Taufe”.
So I asked perplexity:
In genealogy, what is the difference between baptism and christening?
Answer
In genealogy, the terms baptism and christening are often used interchangeably, but they have distinct meanings and origins:
- Baptism:
- A sacrament in Christianity signifying admission into the faith. It involves the use of water and the Trinitarian invocation (“In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”) and symbolizes spiritual cleansing and rebirth128.
- Baptism can occur at any age—infant, child, or adult—and is a central practice in many Christian denominations such as Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Methodism15.
- It is considered a sacrament in most Christian traditions and is essential for salvation in some denominations28.
- Christening:
- Traditionally refers to the naming ceremony of an infant during which the child’s Christian name is bestowed. This often occurs as part of a baptism service but focuses on the naming aspect167.
- Historically, christening was specific to infants and could take place at home or in a church setting with or without a religious context1.
- In modern usage, especially in the Church of England, christening is synonymous with infant baptism3.
Genealogical Context:
- Baptism records are critical for genealogical research as they often include details like the child’s name, birthdate, parents’ names, date of baptism, godparents’ names, and location1.
- While baptism is the sacrament itself, christening refers to the broader ceremony that includes naming. The two events are frequently recorded together in church registers49.
In summary, baptism emphasizes the spiritual act of initiation into Christianity, while christening highlights the naming aspect of the ceremony. Both terms are often used interchangeably today but may carry different connotations depending on historical or denominational contexts.
Whether to use baptism or christening may be more of a cultural tradition, but when the same word (“Dåb”) is used for both it is really difficult to distinguish between the two.
MFT has a FamilySearch feature, that runs in the background and compare persons in MFT to data in FamilySearch. The findings can be imported from FamilySearch to MFT and vice versa.
It looks like this:
The FamilySearch feature finds christening in FamilySearch, but it doesn’t consider baptism in MFT. This might be based on culture as MFT is developed in Germany and FamilySearch is USA based.
So what can we (Gramps) do about this? Well, I think MFT has a good answer.
In MFT event types is not just a list of words, but entities with different properties, e.g. corresponding GEDCOM tag.
My suggestion is that Gramps implements a similar solution, where event types are in a table with properties. One property could be which GEDCOM versions can be used for the GEDCOM tag.
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It’s the same in Norwegian…
We use one word, “dåp,” but it has two different meanings: both Christening and Baptism. In common usage, it is used for the combined event of child christening and baptism.
When a child was baptized at home, perhaps because the priest wasn’t visiting until spring during the winter, or when there was a chance the child might die before reaching the church, we call it “hjemmedåp” (home baptism).
We also have the word “baptisme,” but that is more often used in the technological theological terms to describe the doctrine of the event and the concept around it.
I would say in modern (UK) English Baptism & Christening are one and the same although both are falling out of fashion.
Child Naming parties non sectarian are on the rise
Since Registration began in 1837 the naming of a child occurred at the point of registration which accelerated the merger of the terms although some children could have a baptismal name added particularly in the Catholic faith.
Personally if in conversation with someone who says baptism I will respond baptism or if christening then christening. In terms of Gramps I only ever use Baptism
phil
As a native English speaker in England who was christened in the Church of England and is now Roman Catholic, I think the summary version is that all christenings involve baptism but not all baptisms are christenings.
Christening would refer to baptism in a church, typically in the presence of family and friends. It would most commonly be used in the Church of England and its derivative denominations.
It is possible for a baptism to take place outside of a church and/or to be conducted by a lay member and this would not typically be a “christening” I think?
It’s a bit odd that FamilySearch defaults to the terminology “christening” rather than “baptism” given this context.
Personally I don’t use the term christening as I am focused on ensuring consistency between all the denominations in my family - CofE, Church in Wales, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, and I’m sure there is something I have missed too.
Just my two pennies.
Adding to the confusion…
danrees wrote:
In Sweden at least, home baptism has not been uncommon. My impression is that during the 20th century home baptism occurred mainly in upper (or upper middle) class families, maybe with a personal relation to the performing priest from the Church of Sweden and following the church ritual.
The Church of Sweden allows for baptism performed by a lay member in the form of “emergency baptism”, i.e. when there’s a risk that the newborn child might die. Earlier, an emergency baptism should be confirmed in a ceremony by a priest (in church or at home). This is no longer necessary, reporting the baptism to the parish is enough.
We have the same in France.
In addition, in France we can have civil baptism in town hall.
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