[Upstream] Discourse UX for infrequent visitors

Facebook just began using AI content moderation and it is censoring posts (in both new and historical threads) on the GRAMPS for Genealogists. There are lots of Admin complaints but this is another symptom of Trump allies bending to the administration’s views on “free expression”. So the weaponized censorship it likely to get worse before it gets better.

see Facebook posting [Admin: Link requires membership to view private group]

@csam suggested: “Maybe it’s timely to ask all users of this group to switch to https://gramps.discourse.group/latest

But then Kathy Sexton responded: “although that is what I use when I need help, it is far more difficult to use

when prompted, she further expanded: “every time I’ve ever used it, it’s hard to figure out all the rules and such. I have basically stopped researching for now, so I haven’t used it for a while. I always got fantastic help but was always unsure of what I was doing on there. It just didn’t seem intuitive to me. Kind of, well, when you go there, it’s because you need help with the program, something you don’t understand, but at that point, you are faced with ANOTHER “program” you don’t understand and have to spend time trying to figure out how that website works to get help with the GRAMPS program. It’s always been frustrating. I guess if you were there everyday it would become easy, but I think most people looking for help, are not going to be there everyday.

Now, I’ve been using Discourse every day since the beginning of 2020. So I’m not qualified to see Discourse with “new” or “fresh eyes”. I can probably find another eMail account and sign up for a new account to see what a new visitor sees. But the other experience will be hard to simulate… what a infrequent user sees. Is it overwhelming with scads of unread threads? Is that also the experience of new users now that we have 5 years of postings in the threaded history?

Don’t use or have a Facebook account, but not surprised!

As for Discourse usability the feedback should be directed to the Discourse developers, but essentially it boils down to new users having to learn new programs which are unfamiliar to them.

There might be configuration options too. Perhaps there’s a way to provide a ‘basic use’ tip if the account has been idle for a span of time.

And periodically generating a new (sacrificial) account to explore the new user experience is something I should probably start doing.

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I think the “difficulty” people experience with Discourse mostly comes from the fact that it actually has structure. There are topics, categories, and optional tags — and users feel they must pick the “right” one. Then they’re asked for system, version, OS, and other details that help others give accurate answers.

On Facebook, they don’t have to relate to anything except the exact thing they want to ask. There’s no “new topic” button, no categories, no tags, no version fields. You just write on the wall, and everyone else has to adapt to whatever you posted — not the other way around.

A structured system will never feel as easy as a structureless one when the user’s only goal is to write anything, whether it’s “help with Gramps” or “look at this cute kitten”. Facebook removes all friction by removing all structure, while Discourse asks the user to place their question in a context so the answers can be better, more accurate, and easier to find later.

This is a well‑known UX pattern: the less structure a platform has, the easier it feels for infrequent users — even if it makes the content harder to organize, search, and solve afterwards.

You see the same pattern in notebook‑style tools like OneNote, Notion, or Evernote. They feel simple and flexible precisely because they let users write completely unstructured text, with only lightweight markers like “@” or “#” for navigation. That illusion of simplicity is why so many people choose them: they can avoid making decisions about structure, categories, metadata, or relationships.

Obsidian is a different case entirely. Even though it also uses plain text, it demands far more intentional structure from the user to unlock its full potential — a potential that surpasses most family‑tree software by a wide margin. But because it falls outside what people perceive as “the standard”, many avoid it anyway. It triggers the same “this is new and I have to relate to more than just names and dates” reflex you see everywhere — a kind of structural aversion that makes users default to whatever feels simplest, even when the more powerful option is right in front of them.

We see the same pattern in Gramps: users frequently ask for simplified ways to enter data, precisely because they don’t want to actively decide what the information is or how it should be classified. The less they have to relate to structure, the more comfortable they feel, even if it means losing context, accuracy, or long‑term usability.

So the only realistic way to get users to move over to Discourse is for “superusers” to stop answering technical questions on Facebook and other places where the structureless approach dominates. As long as people get instant help in the unstructured environment, they have no incentive to use the structured one.

This lack of structure is also why so many people prefer Facebook in general. You see the same pattern in research tools: people gravitate toward OneNote, Notion, or Evernote instead of more structured systems like Zotero, simply because they don’t have to deal with metadata or categorization. And in genealogy software, many choose programs because they’re seen as “the standard”, even if 60% of their information disappears the moment they try to export it.

It’s a paradox: you can often get more long‑term value from a notebook‑style system like Obsidian than from rigid genealogy programs like RootsMagic, Gramps, or Legacy. But people still choose the systems with the fewest visible requirements, because they don’t want to deal with structure — even when structure is what actually preserves their data.

Digression: You can see this paradox here on Gramps Discourse as well.
The moment someone posts a longer, evidence‑based reply that questions the established “gold standard” and asks people to think before answering, the discussion often slows down or stops entirely.
It suddenly demands more cognitive effort than a quick, reactive comment: readers have to pause, actually read, process the argument, and respond with something more than a one‑line opinion.
That alone is often enough to break the flow in what many experience as a casual, low‑effort space.
It is the same pattern again: when a conversation demands more than surface‑level engagement, many people instinctively pull back.

We can see a similar pattern in the growing use of AI as a “research tool”.
A lot of people want to type a question and receive a finished product in return, without having to deal with sources, context, or internal consistency.
The result may have little or no connection to historical fact, but it feels good because it looks complete and costs almost no effort.
This is not even new: long before AI, people were already “buying” the simplest possible path to a prestigious ancestor – a Viking king, a French noble, or whatever sounded impressive – without doing the structured research needed to support it.
AI just automates the same temptation: it produces a plausible story without forcing anyone to build a structured method.

The keyword here – and it always will be – is what you might call structure‑phobia: the tendency to avoid anything that forces us to think about context, categories, or relationships before we can move on.


And if anyone has made it this far into the text, here is the metadata:

Methodological Note: The initial draft of this text was written in Norwegian. Microsoft Copilot was used to assist with translation into English and to refine structure, readability, and argument flow. All factual claims, interpretations, and conclusions were reviewed and validated by the author. AI assistance was used strictly as a linguistic and editorial tool.

Which, of course, is yet another example of the very paradox described above: choosing the path of least resistance to reach a finished result. I openly admit that I used a tool I don’t particularly enjoy using, simply because I did not want to sit with dictionaries and translate everything manually from Norwegian to English. In that sense, structure‑phobia strikes again – even for someone who spends a lot of time arguing against it.

And I can probably bet that this very text will end up proving its own point: most readers will drop off long before the end. The moment something becomes long, structured, and demands sustained attention, the audience collapses. Which, ironically, is the clearest possible demonstration of everything described above.


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In the Gramps Help menu you can jump to the User Manual, FAQ and others. You can even jump to the Gramps Bugtracker (MantisBT) and if you dare create a bug record or a feature request.

What if there was a menu item “Ask a question”. Very simple implemented it would just take you to Gramps Discourse. A bit more advanced it would take you to gramps discourse help category and open a new topic and add the gramps version and OS.

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Like the idea, only issue is that Discourse would first require a login, but assuming they are logged in then it should work as you described, but it doesn’t, due to having to click on the javascript “New Topic” button that prevents AI and other malicious bots !

eg the link would go to the “Help” section:
https://gramps.discourse.group/c/gramps-users/7
Then the user selects the "New Topic" button

Then at a minimum they only have to add a title and then the type the message and submit the question…

So in this case the menu item “Ask a question” should probably mention needing an account on Discourse eg: menu item “Ask a question? (Requires an account)”.

Maybe Discourse should offer a simpler user interface for new users and guide them to using the full user interface or staying with the simpler user interface, either way great feedback that should be provided to the Discourse developers.

Found this discourse topic: Hiding GUI elements for new users (less overwhelming)
Maybe there are some tips we could use in gramps.discourse ?

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Good find, this message from 23 days ago shows a simple mockup and the mentioned Horizon theme is available here.

Posted an unquiry:

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I don’t like Discourse. I started with dial-up bulletin board systems (BBS), added Compuserve (and others), then lot of different forum discussion systems. I still subscribe to a couple of mailing lists (gramps-users and others) and, personally, I still find there are advantages to a mailing list over current forum systems like Xenforo.

Which is a bit of a long-winded way of saying that each user brings different experiences and that goes a long way to shape what they find intuitive or easy to use. There is a pretty sizeable hunk of the population that ONLY accesses the internet via Facebook. I think Gramps needs to meet its users where they are. Trying to force one solution on all users is probably going to frustrate nearly everyone.

Craig

(Why don’t I like Discourse? I can’t even articulate it well. Part of it is terminology. “Categories” rather than “forums”. Also, there have been times where Discourse user-interface elements don’t seem to work for me. Especially when running Safari on an older version of macOS. It seems like Discourse assumes “everyone” (or everyone who matters) is running the latest version of Chrome. Or maybe they expect everyone to use an app on their phone. Bleh.)

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Personally, I find Xenforo ‘more comfortable’. For example, the following is a UK-based genealogy site running on Xenforo:

The cost of something like Xenforo may, however, be a problem for Gramps.

Craig