Unmarried parents in GEDCOM

I like this discussion. I would encourage you to think beyond “families”. Yes, they are needed in order to support import/export with GEDCOM. But if you are trying to create a better standard, why not think differently?

One of the fundamental limitations of GEDCOM (and therefore most genealogy software is its bipartite nature of the "nodes – there are individuals, and there are families, and that’s all. Even though the definition of family attempts to allow for modern realities, it is still limited by its structure (separate slots for parents and children).

Instead of having a concept of “family” with variations to accommodate different circumstances of biology, society, and legality etc., why not just have a more generic “group” structure? This could also replace one-way “associations” between people.

Then you could have a group for biological relations (not simply parent/child, but everyone involved in the conception and gestation), a group for each household that a person lived in (for census records), a group of people who inherited a person’s estate (for probate records), etc.

Each type of group could support whatever inter-personal relationships are appropriate for that type of group.

Anyway, glad to see some friendly discussion about this.

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In agnostic formats like CIDOC CRM or GraphML, the term ‘Family’ is no longer a restrictive container—it’s just another node.

Because these formats are type- and role-based, a node can represent a nuclear family, a clan, a household, or even a larger civilization-specific grouping. You can have nodes representing groups within groups, or groups connected to multiple families, without ever breaking the underlying data structure.

The label ‘Family’ doesn’t limit the logic anymore; the graph handles the complexity of the relationships regardless of how you choose to categorize the collective unit. It’s the ontology that provides the flexibility, whereas GEDCOM’s bipartite structure forces you into a specific, rigid mold.

Such structures will allow us to build a group of individuals living and working together at a farm. Or working together as colleagues in a company.

The superset of individuals of all the farms and houses in a village build the inhabitants of that village.

I‘m interested in dynasties of organ builders. There are some trees of students and doctor fathers in mathematics. They are connecting Arab scientists one thousand years ago with recent students.

Many new possibilities.

Yes, and that is why I write that GEDCOM is a limited and lossy format.

In addition, these agnostic formats (like CIDOC CRM and GraphML) are able to hold Main-/Sub-Events and Events on Places, alongside full-fledged RSC (Repositories, Sources, and Citations) data.

And even though it certainly requires some effort, the Gramps data structure can actually support these types of relations and hierarchies today, because its underlying structure is not based on the restrictive lineage-linked methodology.

If Gramps and other genealogy software would support these types of objects and relations/hierarchies, we could start doing historically correct research… without the need for huge research software packages like Arches, nodegoat, ResearchSpace (from the British Museum), OpenAtlas, or Blue Brain Nexus.

We would have a full offline desktop tool capable of interoperating via an interchangeable format with these massive platforms—tools that often require an engineer to install and set up—even if we only research a subset of what those larger systems can do.

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Groups of groups would be nice. Also heterogeneous groups (containing more than one type of object). See this earlier discussion (in which I called them “sets” rather than “groups”).

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“ResearchSpace can represent assertions and arguments using CRMInf – the argumentation extension of the CIDOC CRM – and support continual critical analysis to provide quality conclusions that can better inform the present and the future.“

Sounds like something that might be productive for collaborative genealogy, more so than FamilySearch or WikiTree.

Yes, thanks, George
**That’s exactly why I have been advocating for open-source open-data interchangeable formats for so long, and why I mentioned it earlier as an example: not because CRMInf or CIDOC CRM is the whole and holly answer for genealogy, but because it shows what becomes possible when data is stored in open, non‑lossy, research‑oriented formats.

The fact that it actually is one of the better ontologies for this type of research is just something that has become a really great bonus in my search for this type of “formats”.**

What I’m really advocating is simply this:
genealogy tools should support at least one or two export/import formats that preserve all structure and evidence, and that can interoperate with tools outside the genealogy bubble.

Whether that’s JSON‑LD, GraphML, OWL, Markdown, or CIDOC crm and CRMInf doesn’t matter as much as the fact that the data remains complete, mappable, and reusable.

And I agree with you, even though I haven’t even got as far as to CRMInf in my readings yet… :rofl: something in that direction could be far more productive for collaborative genealogy than the current lossy or siloed approaches likeGEDCOM, FamilySearch or WikiTree or the vendor locked-in platforms like MyH or Anc., Geni etc.

It would finally let genealogical data participate in the wider ecosystem of research tools instead of being locked into a single domain.

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By the way, there is a proposal under discussion for GEDCOM 8 that might eliminate the “family” (FAM) construct and replace it with more complex concepts (membership in groups). The approach—which is more evidence-based and strongly focused on events—is particularly interesting:

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GEDCOM is still essentially a remnant of a theological transfer format, designed specifically for LDS temple work. No matter how many ‘groups’ or ‘events’ they try to patch into version 8, the core architecture is still anchored in a 1980s database mindset that was never meant for modern, evidence-based genealogy.

Instead of trying to fix a format that was broken from the start, we should be looking at entirely different interchangeable formats.
This niche of research needs open-source and open-data formats built for data integrity and complex relationships from the ground up, not another layer of paint on a theological relic.

It sounds like the author’s intent is for the new version 8 features to live alongside of the existing version 7 features, with only a few small changes to existing structures. (And unfortunately, the proposed concept of “groups” does not seem to include events.) But I do like the way she approached the problems. I can’t say whether her solutions are the best, because I don’t know enough about it, but at least it’s a new direction.

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