Additional Gender Options

Ideas
86

Hi! I did not realize this thread got so popular. I’m glad that it did though. I started this thread because I am a multigender nonbinary man.

Please do not make the “not typical male or female” sex categorization “nonbinary.” That would be “intersex” which is not the same as “nonbinary.” The symbol for X (intersex) would be ☿ (mercury) (I asked an intersex friend hir opinion before making this thread in March.) I also included color suggestions at the beginning as well. Yellow and purple are most associated with intersex due to the intersex flag. If you want a nonbinary sex option I would go with “other” as nonbinary sex terms are a contentious topic within the queer community. If needing to fit with GEDCOM standards I would suggest keeping it as X only and not defining it as intersex or nonbinary sex. X is used now in California as a legal sex/gender marker as well. I think also in Australia? it is now possible to get an X or intersex designation when you are born. For “birth sex,” “assigned sex” or “assigned gender,” usually appended “at birth” (but in a genealogy context I wonder if that’s accurate as most people are also dead?) is preferred terminology. There is no way for most of us to know the “biological sex” of our dead family members, it is possible to be intersex and for nobody to know not even the person themselves. As well as it has been considered shameful and so intersex people’s status as intersex is hidden when it is known. There are many ways to be intersex (chromosomes, reproductive organs, secondary characteristics, hormones, etc.) which were not recorded in the past and are usually not tested for or recorded today either. Please do not use “biological sex.”

To try and comprehensively catalogue all possible variants of nonbinary gender is really not possible. “Transgender” and “cisgender” are not genders, they are adjectives for your gender (for example if you were assigned female at birth and are a woman, you would be a cisgender woman, with woman being your gender.) “Bigender” and other multiple-gender terms (like “genderfluid”) are also not typically used as genders in and of themselves. Rather they are used as adjectives like “transgender” and “cisgender” are. “Nonbinary” and other related terms (like “genderflux” and “demigender”) can also be used as an adjective in this way. Man, Woman, Nonbinary, Other, and Unknown would be good for default gender identity entry fields, as well as a custom entry option. I am not sure about genders in other cultures and I have heard that they would not be considered nonbinary, so that’s why I added other.

As for the pronouns, I don’t think that is family tree data and it’s just for the program, so it should be possible to create a custom entry field for that…? It would be difficult but there are examples to base it on (The Sims 4 just updated their code for this, and their custom pronoun entry box is good.) Some people use multiple sets of pronouns but that would be difficult to program.

With regards to translations, it may not be possible at this time to accurately translate non-standard gender terms and pronouns. Gender terms are hard to translate, and there’s usually not a 1:1 translation you can use for them in other languages. Pronouns are also difficult to translate because every language has a different pronoun system. I would suggest not translating either in cases of nonbinary gender and some pronouns because it is not really possible. Neutral pronouns and terminology don’t exist in some languages, and gendered pronouns don’t exist in others. For reports and such in English the simplest solution would be to eliminate gendered terminology and pronouns altogether so everyone uses they/them and neutral terms.
Re: German sex/gender translation, it’s not like there aren’t any transgender or nonbinary people who speak German? I’m sure the community there has its own terms that could be used. But in the situation where there is no different word, it would be like, assigned gender-sex and gender-sex identity, yes? So even if there is no difference in the language between gender and sex it should be possible to differentiate them. A problem would be if there is no word for either. I don’t know how you would translate that.

I don’t understand the “voyage” discussion.
Kingrat’s suggestion of a “deadname” designation preventing accidental un-privating and use of a name is good.

3 Likes
88

From a technical point of view, all I really need to know is how to display a particular person. The easiest way to do this is to have a fixed list of sex/gender display options. These could be:

  • Male
  • Female
  • Other
  • Unknown

So if someone selected “Other” then I could use a colour (e.g. green, but this would be configurable), a symbol (not sure which yet), and gender neutral pronouns (if available in the chosen language).

If someone selected “Unknown” then I could use another colour (e.g. grey, again configurable), another symbol (e.g. “?”), and gender neutral pronouns (if available in the chosen language).

More detailed information could be stored as attributes (which correspond to Gedcom FACT tags). This is the recommendation in the Gedcom standard, but no suggestions are given for attribute names. Gedcom FACT tags allow dates, so we would have to add dates to attributes for full functionality. Time dependent attributes would have other benefits, hence why this thread went off-topic earlier.

My suggestion does misuse the Gedcom SEX tag, but we already do that in Gramps. It is called gender rather than sex, and our users probably don’t always use it to “describe an individual’s reproductive or sexual anatomy at birth”.

89

I have created a new pull request #1400: Add new gender option of “Other”.

We need someone to create a new png file for the icon used in web reports. At the moment I have just copied the female icon.

We will also need volunteers to test and give feedback.

1 Like
90

@Nick-Hall Is “X” the symbol which should be used?
You mentioned “?”, but I think that is more suitable for “unknown” than “other”.

91

I have chosen ⚥ for the symbol, but this can be changed.

I am using “X” in the Gramps XML. Different letters are used in different file formats: “X” is used in Gedcom, “O” in Vcard.

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92

Does this mean that the CSV import automation for “Marriage” data needs updating?

Right now, the columns “husband/father/parent1” (and variations) are automatically set to “Male” and “wife/mother/parent2” set to “Female”.

Maybe Parent1 and Parent2 should be genderless? And if a Person’s Gender is not “Unknown”, don’t override when the Marriage is layered into the data. That would allow exceptions to the Rule.

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94

Tamura Jones weighs in:

2023-02-22 Gender in Genealogy Software
Recording gender in today’s genealogy software
sex & gender

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95

Excellent article!
This calls for two separate fields: sex and gender. Sex is what can be determined from chromosome analysis (5 biological sexes if I’m right) and is usually recorded in birth certificates from visual aspect. It is important to keep Unknown when such attribute is missing from the record and the given name can’t clarify. Gender may be a less closed field as social and cultural classification has not settled.

96

The linked-to article is incorrect and unscientific: sex is more complex than sex-chromosomes.

I don‘t follow how this forum works, i replied to post 4!—posts seems to be doubled up which is confusing to me. [Added edit:] Okay: duh!

97

Sex is what can be determined from chromosome analysis

Unfortunately, it’s not that simple. And even if it were, that would mean the “Sex” field would be empty/unknown for almost everyone since chromosome analysis is rare even today.

Historically, “gender” and “sex” have been used interchangeably, but they are now understood to be social constructs. Furthermore, sex (when understood as “male” or “female”) is a social construct as well. Biological definition of sex can take into account any combination of chromosomes, reproductive and sexual anatomy, secondary sexual characteristics, hormones, etc. There are common correlations that have been observed, and these clusters we refer to as “male” and “female”. If there is mismatch or ambiguity among these biological features, we group those under the term “intersex”.

Gender, on the other hand, can be much more complex. It can be based on sex, and “male” and “female” are still very common options. However, one’s gender identity may not conform to their assigned sex, and it may not conform to the male/female binary at all. There are many groupings – genderfluid, demigender, agender, and two spirit, just to name a few – but “non-binary” is typically used as an umbrella term for these and many other classifications.

Since European and American society have preferred strict groupings of male and female for religious and regal purposes, historical information has largely been reduced to these options. Most information we have collected historically is a conflated mix of gender and sex, and in many cases we will have difficulty disentangling them. Transgender and non-binary individuals were forced to hide their identities, so it is nearly impossible to know from historical documents or even second-hand accounts, what someone’s sex or gender was.

Since the software has historically and currently asked for “gender”, and since gender is more likely to be socially obvious than sex, I believe the correct course of action is the following:

  • Keep the current gender field – “Gender” – with the following options: Male, Female, Non-Binary, Unknown. This field should contain the currently-known gender data.
  • Add a new field – “Sex Assignment” – with the following options: Male, Female, Intersex, Unknown. This field should be empty by default, or an option can be given to populate this field with existing data from the “Gender” field as a one-time migration.
  • Add a free-text gender field – “Gender Details” – for more detailed definition of non-binary genders. This field should be empty by default.
  • Add a free-text sex field – “Sex Assignment Details” – for more detailed definition of sexual characteristics (genome sequencing, anatomical information, hormone data, etc.) if known/desired. This field should be empty by default.

Additionally, “Father” and “Mother” should be removed in favor of “Parent 1” and “Parent 2”. There may be other cleanup necessary as well, and I can try to help with the effort of tracking these down if desired.

–

Is there any objection to this handling of the data and interface moving forward? @Nick-Hall – I see you have a pull request open already. Do you have any thoughts?

2 Likes
98

A different point of view on this topic.

Being an epicene or hermaphrodite (latter the term used when i was born), which is more recently named intersex (my first knowing this to be used in a German paper of 1916, my first hearing it in the late 1980s), i was born with ”ambiguous” (that is, in-between) genitalia, and am sexually ambiguous in general, but get taken as female which doesn‘t worry me as others tend to feel more comfortable with this: i am sort of like a tomboy.

I distinguish sex as biological fact, and gender identity —should one have one, i don‘t— as a construct: these are not overlapping ’concepts’. Most humans are either born phenotypically normal male or female and most of these see themselves as simply male or female, and so to claim that they have a gender identity (”cisgender”) is meaningless but is an attempt to impose an ideology onto them. Myself, i have mixed with mostly phenotypically normal folks (whatever their sexual orientation), and much lesser so with intersexuals, transsexuals, gynemimicists (being mostly prostitutes—a story in itself) and transvestites (all but intersexuals mostly by accident), so being an anthropologist i feel that i have a good grasp of where they are coming from—i’m not being [insert word of choice]phobic here as i’ve accepted them as whom they are, but i don‘t like the politicising of it all.

The term ’gender’ was earlier used in linguistics, then around twenty years ago became synonymous with the word ’sex’. Many languages have no gender in the pronouns, nor anywhere else.

I was born this way, whether i like it or not, and it tends to be suppressed and secret (as in my case): as a child i had my genitalia mutilated (there is no record of this) into a poor facsimile of the legally fictional sex that i was eventually assigned, and as a result have iatrogenic problems—what sex that i was assigned sometime after birth is irrelevant here, as this is a legal fiction; therefore, i am pleased that there is discussion here, as i have had to enter myself as ’unknown’ with a note that i am intersex.

I don‘t know of Gedcom 7: is this a mistake? I think that there has to be two fields: 1. SEX being Male, Female, Intersex, and Unknown, of which everyone has; and 2. GENDER being…well…an optional open field.

Sorry for the lengthy introduction, but this is from the mongoose’s mouth. :wink:

(Apologies for any odd spellings, i’m dyslexic…and hate typing.)

2 Likes
99

I support including “None” as an additional option for gender based on this as well. I disagree with your interpretation of the word “gender” and know that many others would disagree as well, but that doesn’t matter much. My initial interest in this was because I felt excluded by the software, and I would not want to do that to others.

100

Your argument is relativism, that everything is a construct with no objective reality: a transhumanistic delusion of existing in a ”virtual reality”; should one be able to claim to be anything one wants to, then perhaps there needs to be a field for those who identify as cats…or mongooses. As my being intersex i don‘t see myself as ’Non-Binary’, nor having a ’Sex Assignment’. :upside_down_face:

Most humans are either phenotypically normal XX or XY, it’s only freaks like myself who don‘t fit into this: i could be chi46XX/46XY (i am a dispermic chimera) with two ovotestes, but it’s never been investigated properly (see Dewald 1980).

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101

You can believe how you wish, and you can see yourself however you wish. It’s not my place to tell you you’re wrong when you know yourself better than I ever could.

However, it remains apparent that “sex” is a construct based on common collections of biological traits, and “gender” is a construct based on common social traits, some of which are affected by biological sex, and some of which are not.

“Names” and “dates” and “nationalities” are constructs as well, for that matter. None of them are real, except that we have collectively decided they carry meaning. And I think these pieces of information are worth recording, regardless of whether they are universally accepted or not.

And to your suggestion of people identifying with animals – which I assume you mean like “spirit animals” or “familiars” or something like that – I think that would best be discussed in another thread. :slight_smile:

102

By identifying as non-human animals, i’m referring to those whom think that they are in the wrong species, and behave, for example, like a cat—i think that some call themselves ’furries’…or whatever. :smiley_cat:

I don‘t believe in anything. You say that ’sex’ is ’apparently’, hence not actually, „based on common collections of biological traits” these being factual and measurable so not constructs, yet then say that ’gender” „is a construct based on common social traits”, thus distinguishing fact from construct. I don‘t agree that ’names’ and ’dates’ and ’nationalities’ are constructs but instead are useful conventions. Moreover, one’s ancestry is not a construct, this being the basis of genealogy…unless one believes that one is living in some type of a simulation, which would be most likely impossible to prove: should one believe that one’s ancestry is a construct then why bother to do genealogy at all? :upside_down_face:

I also don‘t know whom my father is, and whether you like it or not he is an adult biological male who copulated with my mother who is an adult biological female.

[Edit for clarity and logic.]

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103

Truth is not so by voting on it.

I’ve been excluded all of my life, including from family—should one be different then exclusion comes with the territory: one needs to have a thick skin. :slightly_smiling_face:

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104

If you really think like this, you can’t do/trust the historical genealogy research you do, because anything you find will be a “construction” e.g., fiction… Relations you find is just constructed fictions; you can’t have parents because that is also just fictional constructions, and therefore, the whole research will be pointless… history will be pointless and life will be … (Well, you get the idea)

I do agree that two fields for this would be a good solution, but keep “Sex” as a “binary” biological value given by birth, and use Gender (or something more describing and open) for the variants a person feels like later in life, this field should have a relation to the Sex field with a customized describing label. It should also have options for several options, including changes based on dates (as we today can add new names to people and places with a date/period), in addition, this field must also have Notes and source citations associated with it because some people change their affiliation or sense of their own gender during their lives, it should also be possible to make a link to an Event, and it should change if you added a specific type of Event.

105

We use the existing gender field in Gramps to determine how individuals are displayed in the user interface and in reports. It is used to select the colour of boxes in charts, the pronouns used in narrative reports and the sex symbol used.

My pull request #1400 adds the option of “Other” to the existing choices of “Male”, “Female” and “Unknown”. Would “Non-binary” be better than “Other”?

Next we have to think about how to record sex and gender information found in documents. What type of documents record sex and gender information? What information do they actually record?

106

No. Non-binary is a specific category in how people identify themselves, and in that sense it’s more gender than sex. This is based on the assumption that we use the term gender for how people feel, and sex for biology, meaning chromosomes and appearance.

This means that I fully agree with Tamura Jones on this subject. Intersex is a biological reality, and always has been, and should not be mixed up with other variants. Gender is an ever expanding list of identifications, which can hardly be stored in an enumerated value.

How do we deal with the fact that sex may be misidentified at birth?

Afterthought: Although intersex is a reality, I do not support the idea that the X should be exclusively used for that.

GEDCOM 5.5.5 is a fantasy. :slight_smile:

107

The problem right now is that two things are lumped into one field. “Sex” and “Gender” are conflated and called “Gender”.

Sex → {Male, Female, Intersex, Unknown}
Gender → {Male, Female, Non-Binary, Agender/None, Unknown}

These should all continue to be driven by gender, or if gender is unknown, inferred from sex.

This will vary based on jurisdiction. For example, some places allow the gender marker on government IDs to be modified freely, and others require it to be updated on the birth certificate first. And the rules for updating birth certificates vary by locale as well.